Interview with Isaac Julien*
IJ: My work is always led by my research. When I first become interested in a subject and decide that I want to make a work about it, I never know how it is going to end up! The research process for Ten Thousand Waves began by tracing back the paths of the cocklepickers: from Morecambe Bay to the Fujian province of China and then into Chinese history and myth. During this research we read about a long tradition of migration in the Fujian province that goes back well before our current period of globalization. We also read about the goddess Mazu who is said to protect seafarers. This historic element (seen through scenes which recreate the classic golden age film The Goddess) and this mythic element went on to make up a crucial element of the work, so it’s difficult to imagine how the work might have looked without this research.
One thing that happens with projects like this is that one also finds plenty of leads that are interesting but that aren’t appropriate for the work one is making at the time. During my research in China, I spent time with curators and artists and had the opportunity to renew an acquaintance with contemporary Chinese art. There is perhaps a very different project to be made there!
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Isaac Julien Hotel (Ten Thousand Waves) | 2010 Endura Ultra photograph | 180 x 240 cm Courtesy of the artist, Metro Pictures, New York and Victoria Miro, London |
IJ: I always think it’s important to look back with criticality as much as nostalgia. A critical nostalgia, if you like. That’s not to invalidate nostalgia as a response to the past, but we also need to take a step further and to analyse that response as far as possible. On the one hand, yes: Ten Thousand Waves does depict traditions that are rapidly eroding, but also shows how the impetus to migrate – to leave one’s home in search of a better life–, which ultimately led to the cockle pickers finding themselves in Lancashire, is itself a tradition in that region. As well as the peaceful scenes you describe, we also see the bodies of Fujian fishermen in traditional dress. These causes and effects have always been there; the difference is that now they’re sped up. Of course Ten Thousand Waves is itself a product of these rapid changes. As a work of art it uses cutting edge technology and takes full advantage of a global perspective, so there’s an ambiguity there.
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Isaac Julien ECLIPSE (Playtime), 2013 Endura Ultra Photograph 160 x 240 cm Courtesy the artist, Victoria Miro, London, Metro Pictures, New York, Galería Helga de Alvear, Madrid and Roslyn Oxley9, Sydney |
IJ: PLAYTIME followed on from my recent works Ten Thousand Waves and Western Union: small boats. In these works that looked at migration, I was trying to find out what drove people to cross borders, seas and continents in search of a better life. The same answer kept coming up: capital! I am fascinated by this force. It influences all our lives, whether we are domestic workers, hedge fund managers or art dealers. At the same time, it’s invisible and abstract, so poses a fascinating challenge to someone who works in images, such as myself.
IJ: Because of Marx’s ‘Das Kapital’. With ‘capital’, you are right there is an ambiguity: capital cities, capital assets or capital as a social relation. All these forms of capital make an appearance in PLAYTIME, but with Kapital I wanted to make an engagement with Marx more explicit. Of course, part of the work critiques Marx as much as other parts make use of his tools.
CH: Like the flying Goddess in Ten Thousand Waves, the idea of capital is also kind of like a myth. Both are invisible and we assume they exist by the effects they have on our lives and at other times these ideas are reinforced by an existing social construct. Then again, one thing that they do not share is what generates their movements; the flying movements of the Goddess is propelled by the labor of your production crew, while “movement” is necessary for the maintenance of capital value, since it must always be circulating through multiple transactions on the market. For example, when the market fluctuates and crashes it sets the whole world in motion along comes with gains and losses. What kind of visual or theoretical method(s) did you use in order to visualize such a capital phenomenon in modern societies?
IJ: As you say, there are the effects of capital, which PLAYTIME attempts to show: a displacement of people, a gleaming skyscraper, a man’s life in ruins. Then there’s a sense of scale or pervasiveness: capital is everywhere, from an art gallery to a catholic church in Dubai. Finally, as you rightly imply, there’s an anxiety about motion. Capital must always be in motion, or rather, in a state of acceleration. Just as characters like the art dealer or the hedge fund manager are benefiting from its movements, they are desperately trying to keep it moving. The case of the artist, who lost his house in Reykjavik, is an example of what happens when it stops moving.
*Many thanks to Isaac Julien for agreeing to do this interview with me. Also, I would like to thank John Bloomfield (Isaac's studio researcher) and Dr. Mel Francis (Issac's studio archivist) for their time and patience in helping me put this together.
Prior to this interview, in 2011, I wrote two separate reviews of Isaac Julien's exhibition at Metro Pictures. Click here for the March review and here for the November review.
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